New Tome Combat Feat: Whip It Good

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:39 pm

Whip It Good [Combat]
When something’s going wrong, you must whip it.

0 BAB: You gain proficiency with the whip, whip-dagger, and any weapons with the word “whip” in its name. Additionally, whips you wield can damage any opponent, regardless of their armor or natural armor bonus and you don't provoke attacks of opportunity for using the weapon in melee. You also treat the whip as a third prehensile limb for the purposes of manipulating objects.
+1 BAB: The damage die of whip-themed weapons increases by two effective size categories (for whips: 1d4 small, 1d6 medium, 1d8 large). Additionally, you can choose whether to deal lethal or non-lethal damage with a whip.

As a standard action, you can make a special attack against an opponent. If you successfully hit and deal damage, the opponent must succeed on a Reflex Save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Hit Dice + Dexterity modifier) or be entangled for 1 round and cannot move outside your whip's reach (15 feet). You can only attempt to inflict this condition on an opponent once per round.
+6 BAB: Overwhelming Pain: Opponents struck by your whip attack must roll a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ your Hit Dice + Strength modifier) or be sickened for 1 round. You can only attempt to inflict this condition on an opponent once per round.
+11 BAB: You threaten all squares you can reach with whip-based weapons.
+16 BAB: Break the Sound Barrier: You may make a normal attack, disarm, or trip attempt with a whip-based weapon as a swift action.

The whip in the 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook was a relatively useless gimmick weapon. It dealt as much damage as an unarmed strike by a non-monk, was non-lethal only, and could not damage most monsters or opponents with any form of armored protection. This feat is designed to make the whip-based fighter a valid, playable concept.

What do you think of this feat? What areas are in need of improvement?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:09 pm

The +6 BAB ability needs to go. In isolation it is fine, but there are enough feats (Combat School), class abilities (Barbarian, Monk), magic item abilities (just glance at the Book of Gears list), etc., that give the once-a-round save-or-suck, that people are probably going to start having two when they take this feat. We really don't want that to happen.

edit: Alternatively, we could start putting language in all of these that they don't stack with each other. Which is probably not a bad idea.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:24 pm

What if I made it part of its own special attack? So a Fighter with Combat School and Whip It Good can choose whether to Sicken or Daze an opponent.

Also altered the +0 BAB to make it so that you don't provoke AoOs when using the whip in melee.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:38 pm

Was this made in an attempt to capitalize on the popularity of 50 Shades of Grey?

More seriously, I don't really any reason why I would ever take this feat. A whip-based concept is cool, but all this feat does is make it viable. That means I'm spending a feat just on making my concept work at all, whereas an already supported concept like swording things would allow me to spend that feat on gaining an actual bonus of some kind. This is a feat, it costs character resources, which means it can't just make whips on par with other weapons, it has to make whips better than other weapons. It needs to be the case that trying to play optimally it would actually be hard to choose between, say, a morningstar with Combat School and a whip with this feat.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:12 pm

@Chamomile:

The whip's main strength it that it has a 15-foot reach. At 11 BAB, a Fighter with this, Blitz, Hordebreaker, and Two-Weapon Fighting can really wreak havoc with this (moreso with Enlarge Person).

I notice that the 0 and 1 BAB makes it on par with other weapons instead of making it a superior option, with the best stuff in the latter three areas. I should probably find two more benefits to assign to these areas to make the whip a superior option when choosing weapons.

The main problem is that the weapon has to compete with the Spiked Chain, which has a shorter reach but is overall better than the whip in every which way.

How would you suggest I improve the feat?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:28 pm

Easy fix is to port the +0 and +1 bonuses from Combat School directly over in addition to what's already there. The +0 and +1 are really the parts that need work, since they don't do anything except make the whip usable at all right now, so the easy solution is just to copy/paste from a somewhat similar feat. Of course, there's the problem that this either stacks with Combat School or doesn't, and both of those have potential problems.

I'm trying to think of cool whip things you could do like wrapping it around a guy's throat and choking them from a distance, or swirling it around you to hit everyone within range, but all of those are either things I can't figure out how to model or things which other feats do already. Personally, I'd take the current +0 or +1 abilities and package them together as some other thing, like maybe a background or something.

Feline Ritualist: You were the target of a creepy cat ritual that gave you incredible proficiency with a whip for some reason. Your attacks with whips deal damage as though two size categories harder, deal damage regardless of the opponent's armor or natural armor bonus, and you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when using a whip in melee.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:48 am

I thought of a special ability:

+1 BAB additional ability: As a standard action, once per round, you can make a special attack against an opponent. If you successfully hit and deal damage, the opponent must succeed on a Reflex Save (DC 10 + 1/2 your Hit Dice + Dexterity modifier) or be entangled for 1 round and cannot move outside your whip's reach (15 feet).

Limited crowd control, slightly immobilizes opponents.

What do you think?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:13 am

That could work quite well.

That said, I think there is already a Tome Whip Feat out there, I think someone basically turned the old Lasher prestige class into a Feat?

I also hacked one together as a Skill Feat (given if you're using a Whip, you're probably actually a Bard or something rather than a Fighter) a while past, for a game I am playing.

Skilled Lasher:
The whip is really just an extension of your arm, moving people and objects as you wish it to. Also it hurts.
Requirements: any one of the following Weapon Proficiencies: Scorpion Whip, Scourge, Stingray Whip, Whip, Whip-Dagger, Nagaika
Benefits: you gain proficiency with all of the above weapons, and can even use a simple length of rope as a whip. Using such a weapon does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, and the weapon actually threatens squares. Additionally, you gain further benefits based on the number of ranks of Use Rope you possess - which becomes a Class Skill for you.
4 ranks: you may use any of the weapons covered by this feat (including rope) as a long "hand", allowing you to manipulate basic objects such as levers, grab things to pull yourself up to (or swing from) and initiate a Trip or Grapple (which does not provoke an Attack of Opportunity, as you needn't enter the target's square). The reach is the same as that of the weapon.
9 ranks: you now benefit from Improved Grab with the weapons covered by this feat (including rope). Furthermore, if you successfully Pin a foe with such a weapon, you may properly bind them (requiring a Use Rope check as normal - even if using a whip and not a rope) as a Free action.
14 ranks: whenever you attack an adjacent foe with a weapon covered by this feat (including rope), you swing it around behind them to catch them unawares. You are considered to be Flanking such foes for the purpose of your attacks, and they do not gain the benefit of any Shield bonuses to Armour Class.
19 ranks: such is your mastery of the weapons covered by this feat (including rope) that you may use it to deliver any melee Touch Attacks (including spells) you can make at a range equal to the weapon's reach. You may choose to make a regular attack, not a touch attack, in which case it deals weapon damage as well as the effect of the Touch Attack on a successful hit.

(Yeah, I didn't think to do anything about the Negated By Armour or the Non-Lethal thing, but I was going to use a Stingray Whip or Nagaika anyway.)

So for things like this, where multiple feats exist to cover the same thing, we probably should line them up and settle on one, then shoot the rest in the face.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:46 am

or be sickened for 1 round. You can only inflict this condition on an opponent once per round.

What's the point of this limitation? If you're sickened for one round once in one round or three time in one round, aren't you just sickened for one round?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:16 am

y'all should watch this then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7D_lPNu-b8
It's 'Batman of Shanghai: Catwoman' she uses a whip and does lots of whippy stuff.

I figure one of the whip abilities should be to use it like a hand, grabbing things, swinging from things, throwing things and so on.

and spin the whip, create an area effect that makes everyone take a reflex save if they enter.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:47 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:
or be sickened for 1 round. You can only inflict this condition on an opponent once per round.
What's the point of this limitation? If you're sickened for one round once in one round or three time in one round, aren't you just sickened for one round?

I think the point was if they save, they don't have to make another save in the same round when they get hit a second time.

In all seriousness though, I think some language on all the various once-per-round save-or-suck options could be worthwhile. There is such a proliferation at this point, and we really don't want people to be doing more than one at a time.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:12 pm

I'm going to go with Surgo here and have limitations on the "special attacks." Rolling an attack roll, then a save for whip, then a save for Combat School, then again (for full attack) can bog down gameplay with a deluge of die rolls.

Also added in the entangling thing to the +1 BAB, and took some inspiration from the "manipulate objects" ability from Skilled Lasher and added it to the 0 BAB.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:13 pm

Surgo wrote:In all seriousness though, I think some language on all the various once-per-round save-or-suck options could be worthwhile. There is such a proliferation at this point, and we really don't want people to be doing more than one at a time.

Why not? Is there a problem with layering a stunned and a sickened and whatever else on the same target? Or is it just a general desire to not make targets roll multiple saves against a full-attack routine?

[Edit]-

Libertad wrote:I'm going to go with Surgo here and have limitations on the "special attacks." Rolling an attack roll, then a save for whip, then a save for Combat School, then again (for full attack) can bog down gameplay with a deluge of die rolls.

There is a difference between stacking two effects on one attack, and putting two different effects on two attacks. I agree that the former could be problematic, because you can do it to more people, but the latter is no worse than currently spreading your combat school attacks around and should not be written out.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:22 pm

The point is to prevent a target from having to make a save against five different save-or-suck effects in a single attack, and nothing more. That is pretty crazy.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:38 am

Has this only just been noticed as an issue?

In our Tome game (currently level 11) it is assumed that you cause 2 save-or-suck effects when you hit someone. Between Barbarian stun, Book of Gears weapons, Combat school, Monk styles and Weapon of Righteous Destruction, I think everyone has at least two.

We are using the Book of Gears interpretation for any save-on-hit (so each target only makes one save against each effect per round), which limits the madness, but we kind of assumed higher level Tome characters layered these effects like crazy as a matter of course.

It hasn't caused too much slow down so far. As long as characters have their save DC's worked out ahead of time and the DM has the bad guys saves listed its just a case of rolling two different coloured dice.

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:14 pm

I feel as if everyone's seen this as an issue for a while but the context never came up to address it, I know I've been looking at it skeptically for a while but never really thought to produce a solution. I'll have to say that a lot of the material that made its way into the PDF isn't stuff that I feel should be there, too, Weapon of Righteous Destruction being one of them, as I recall that it was quickly hacked together in the middle of a thread and doesn't strike me as a well-designed feat at all.

I think choosing what you're going to make an opponent save against each time you hit is not only more mechanically viable as well as less likely to bog down gameplay, but also more flavourful. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:22 pm

Concerning the new +1 ability, it should also be mentioned that only one opponent at a time can be so entangled, and probably you can't attack anyone other than the entangled opponent. It should also be true that you can unentangle them as a free action.

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:45 pm

No, you should watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr2M_Pydkfw